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Family => Military Talk => Topic started by: faded_halo on January 19, 2006, 02:17:34 PM

Title: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: faded_halo on January 19, 2006, 02:17:34 PM
I was asked the same question today... and I wondered... what do you think?  :-\
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: davidAZ on January 19, 2006, 03:13:09 PM
Tough issue for sure
Politicians and the media have had a big hand in shaping public opinion, so when I hear people speak out, it seems that I keep hearing echos, that many people aren't really thinking for themselves.

There's no right or wrong answer, just mistakes to be considered.  If everyone pulls out now, then we risk a more loathsome dictator gaining control.  If we stay indefinitely, the protection of our own soil will become weakened.

I don't believe Iraq was about WMD when it began.  I think that those we're the key words that the media latched on to, and because it gained the public opinions, the White House had little choice but to speak the language.
I think, that from the beginning, this was about:

dispersing the terrorist cells that thrived in the land
gaining control of a foothold into the middle east to access Iran, Saudi Arabia, and so on
overthrowing a dictator that oppressed a nation, before it fell into the hands of one of his sons
and I believe that it was an experiment of freedom, could the US breed freedom when the citizens were too beaten down to begin it themselves?

also, from the very beginning, the White House warned that it would take time to complete its goals.  But it took about five weeks before the naysayers began lighting the torches.

Has Washington made mistakes, absolutely.  Could things have been done differently, absolutely.  Hindsight is 20/20, but where might we be if we were still simply looking over the fence from Kuwait and wondering what they were doing?  Everybody has the good of the country in mind.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Keith on January 19, 2006, 04:03:44 PM
I'm sitting right on the fence on this one..   If the war is over oil, then no, it isn't worth it.   If the war is over terrorisim, then yes.    Like David said, once the media  gets in on it things change.  I dont' always believe what the media says and when I do, I take it with a grain of salt.   I was for the war in the beginning.  When the WTCs were attacked, I was so pissed.   I read where it was the US that did it.  I still don't believe that, I mean, could we do that to our own people? 

I think that the US does stick it's nose in way too many places that it shouldn't.   I'm a big believer in I won't mess with him until he messes with me.  We got messed with, and we started kicking ass. 

I have heard that we are thinking of invading Iran.   Any truth to that?
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: davidAZ on January 19, 2006, 04:16:08 PM
Iran seems to be getting noticed a lot more, for sure.
However, I think we might see the other extreme on that issue.  Bush isn't going to risk a conflict at the end of his presidency, he's got enough problems as it is.  And whoever comes in after him will probably be elected for promises of getting us out of war.  So we might see some cloak and dagger secret missions in Iran, but I doubt that we'll have the position and resources to even consider war.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Keith on January 19, 2006, 10:53:40 PM
We as a nation need to start taking care of our own first and foremost.   I am getting real sick of helping other countries out before we help our own citizens.  I mean, I see it on the news all the time.  People from other countries burning our flag and saying pretty much how we suck.  Then when something bad happens like a natural disaster who is the first country to supply aid and money?   Yes, the United States! 

I also think that Bush won't care about trying to get us out of war before his presidency runs out because he can't be elected again next term.  Unless he does or cares about another Republican getting in office, but I think that may be out of the question next time around unless Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic nomination.   Just my 2 cents..
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Stratman on January 21, 2006, 10:48:32 PM
I'm sitting right on the fence on this one..   If the war is over oil, then no, it isn't worth it. 

I work with the guy (Keith) and I can tell you... he may SAY he's sitting on the fence, but his lifestyle says otherwise. I'm not saying that the war was about oil (I hope it wasn't) but even if it was, (I'm just asking a question here) is that such a terrible thing? Or should we go back to the horse & buggy. We have become such a spoiled society here in 2006, could we ever go back? I like my cell phone. I like DRIVING wherever I want, whenever I want. I like a nice warm house and a nice hot shower once in a while. Is that so wrong? I'm sick and tired of having to defend this war that I (probably naively) hope was about freeing people from a dictatorial regime but may in fact have been about oil. Am I way off base here? I don't want to start an argument but as a veteran, I guess I'll always feel the need to support the Commander-n-Chief.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: faded_halo on January 22, 2006, 02:59:29 AM
I have to disagree. I am sure terrorism had at the least a little to do with the war. Lord knows Saddam is no angel, but if oil played a big part for this war, then I say it was not worth it. I also love hot showers and driving on command but if that comes at the price of children dying...then I would more than happy to give it up. I couldn't imagine the rage I would have if another country invaded the U.S. and bombed my children so the can have hot water and take thier kids to see King's Island. I am for the wars on terrorism, they did **ck up when the did 9-11, that was 100% wrong, I am a "don't get mad, get even" sort of guy. But on the other hand, I love children too. No amount of oil is worth 1 childs life. I don't want an argument either...this is just my opinion.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Stratman on January 26, 2006, 05:08:37 AM
Jay,
     Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm the father of a college student, and I would give my life to save his or his mother. I believe the war IS about terrorism, I hope I'm not being naive about it, though (I'm a SIMPLE GUY). All I'm saying is, after 6 years in the Navy and seeing with my own eyes how world governments twist and turn in ways that don't always make it to the newspaper, it wouldn't suprise me one bit to find out YEARS from now that it had ALOT to do with oil. I'm a dyed in the wool Republican (an outcast in Tennessee), so I believe even if it had nothing to do with crude, the Democrats will prove that it did (damned if ya do...). Believe me, if I had been 20 years younger on 9/11, I would have "re-up'd" back into the military to help stick it to Saddam myself. Unfortunately, civilian casualties are going to happen in any war.

                                                               Later,
                                                        The Stratmeister
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Ramblin' Dad on March 01, 2006, 03:48:51 PM
I am a vet as well and I can tell you that I do not like the fact that we are at war. However, you must understand that I also did not like spending weeks and months at sea under water, but I did it because it had to be done and it was my duty to do it for my country. That is part of the reason I joined in the first place. War sucks, but to sit back and let the world go to shit and let terrorists decide what kind of government a country has (SPAIN) is complete and utter stupidity.

I don't think we had much of a choice as far as Iraq goes. How can we say we are fighting for freedom against terrorism if we couldn't even back up the sanctions we had against a government that supports and contributes to terror from a war we WON back in '91!! I don't understand why we stopped back then. It's akin to fighting the Nazis in WWII, accepting a surrender from Hitler, then sitting back and letting him dictate to us where and when we could investigate to ensure the death camps were no longer in service.

Were there WMD in Iraq? No. Did we know that before we went in? NO! But that is not the whole issue in Iraq as far as I am concerned. A sadist dictator was running a country, in a way that was against sanction from a war he lost, while he tortured people, embezzled money from the oil for food program, and payed rewards to families of stupid kids that strapped bombs to their bodies and blew up as many innocents as they could manage. Can we pull out? Sure, if we want another nut job to step in and take his place or another country like Iran or better yet Syria to step in and make things worse.

As far as the war being about oil? If it is I sure would like to know who is benifiting, because it sure as hell isn't the USA.

There is no right answer, but there are answers out there that are more wrong.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Keith on March 01, 2006, 04:22:38 PM
I am a vet as well and I can tell you that I do not like the fact that we are at war. However, you must understand that I also did not like spending weeks and months at sea under water, but I did it because it had to be done and it was my duty to do it for my country.

And I know that I very proud of you guys and happy to call myself an American!


Were there WMD in Iraq? No. Did we know that before we went in? NO!

Not that we know of or have been told.  But we were searching an ENTIRE country and I am sure that there are still tons of places that we haven't looked.

As far as the war being about oil? If it is I sure would like to know who is benefiting, because it sure as hell isn't the USA.

The only way I can think of if we did benefit from it would be that we will continue to have access to the oil now and before they could've told us no more, period!  I remember I think back at the end of Desert Storm when Saddam (sp?) started burning all of the oil fields, he was thinking that if he couldn't have them, no one would.  So it would lead me to believe that it was about oil, in his eyes anyway.

Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Ramblin' Dad on March 01, 2006, 04:49:21 PM
I remember I think back at the end of Desert Storm when Saddam (sp?) started burning all of the oil fields, he was thinking that if he couldn't have them, no one would.  So it would lead me to believe that it was about oil, in his eyes anyway.

I remember quite well. In his eyes it was the oil. It was the reason he invaded Kuwait. His government was reeling from the costs of war with Iran and money mismanagement. Saddam saw the small oil rich country of Kuwait as a means to restore his coffers. He already had the military built up and battle tested from the war with Iran so it was a peace of cake for him to go into the nearly defenseless (in comparison) country and take over their oil.

In a way that war was over oil. Not that we wanted more, but that we stood to lose a great deal of it, or have it controlled by a sadistic dictator. The war in my eyes was justified, because Iraq invaded a soverne country for their resourses, as well as all the other nasty things Saddam was doing in his country.

One might argue, well didn't we invade a sovern country for their resourses? There are two glaring things wrong with that view. The first and foremost is Iraq lost rights to sovernty when after they lost the war they did not follow sanctions put in place and defied any other enforcement of them. Secondly like I said earlier what resourses are we reaping the benifit from.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Keith on March 01, 2006, 11:32:19 PM
Very good points.   
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: MindBender on March 02, 2006, 01:29:54 AM
Just alittle bit of my two cents worth here.. I'm for the war either way you look at it..  I have to add on the WMD's they were there and I would everyone would deep down know that they were.  I mean look at it like this we suppiled Iraq with weapons during the Iraq - Iran War.  Iraq used chemical weapons on Iran and its own people (the Kurds).  The U.S. is where Iraq got the WMD's to start with and they were there and they moved them to Syria or maybe longtime foe Iran.  Just like in Desert Storm in 91 Iraq sent their small amount of an airforce to Iran to keep our bombing from destorying them and Iran kept them in the end.  Heres where I got my info on  the WMD's and them truely being there.

Saddam's Secrets" by Iraq General Sada who was close to Saddam (Who was not a Ba'athist) said there were WMD and were smuggled out of country before we attacked. he mentioned they went to Syria and other places.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Stratman on March 08, 2006, 10:53:06 PM
Amen & Right On!
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: davidAZ on March 09, 2006, 12:44:28 PM
Why is it that whenever I watch anything relating to current events, I feel outnumbered in this- and yet here, we seem to have a near majority?  The media, politicians, and so on, portray ourselves as vulgar, fighting a hopless battle, and in it recklessly.

I can understand people not liking Bush.  I still think he was a better decision over Kerry, though Bush has had his mistakes.  But the presidency is not the issue here.

Why are our elected officials trying to bring home our troops, clearly dismissing the fact that it could be damaging to simply pull-out?  I feel bad for the lives we've lost, and their families.  But it's better that it is them rather than our civilians in Atlanta, LA, or New York.

I understand that there are plenty of people who can't quite think on their own, that their popular attitudes can be based on what their told.  Not that that's the case for everyone, of course.  But is there any chance that the media has become out of touch with the public?  And since when has the media grown such a lean of opinions?  I want my new reporting to be based on facts and somewhat insightful.  But since the public polls show a majority of Americans against Bush, it seams the the media can conform to the majority and display a personal conscious against the politics of this war.

Sometimes I feel like we're in a nation of dogs.  Whenever the media, or a politician has a bone or a red bouncy ball to wave, everyone in unison looks this way or that.  And the man with the ball smiles because he's gotton our attention.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Ramblin' Dad on March 09, 2006, 02:11:23 PM
Why is it that whenever I watch anything relating to current events, I feel outnumbered in this- and yet here, we seem to have a near majority?  The media, politicians, and so on, portray ourselves as vulgar, fighting a hopless battle, and in it recklessly.

I find it interesting, because this thread is odd in that so far everyone agrees for the most part. Most other groups that I am in and have been in swing back and forth and there is a lot of controversy. What little differences there are here are talked about and our members actually listen to each other. This is rather refreshing. I think you might feel outnumbered only because you choose to have your own thoughts rather than what is spoon fed to you from a media designed to feed controversy. Controversy sells!

Why are our elected officials trying to bring home our troops, clearly dismissing the fact that it could be damaging to simply pull-out?  I feel bad for the lives we've lost, and their families.  But it's better that it is them rather than our civilians in Atlanta, LA, or New York.

That is one of my biggest questions of all. When you look at history and compare the amount of time and the things we have accomplished with the number of troops we have lost you can see that we are doing damn well. The media will not acknowledge that, instead they are going to publish each individual death and make an issue of it so they can stir the conflict and sell the news. Yes we have lost over 2,000 troops, but wow look at the things we have accomplished. I am very impressed that we have only lost the numbers we have. I feel bad for there families too, but by the same token those same troops are doing it because they want to and need to. I know this need. I been there and done that. I felt that same need on 9-11 and was frustrated as hell when I knew I was too old to go back in and do my part in the military again. If we pull out it will be nearly like it was in '91 leaving a job unfinished that will have to be finished later at a higher cost.

Sometimes I feel like we're in a nation of dogs.  Whenever the media, or a politician has a bone or a red bouncy ball to wave, everyone in unison looks this way or that.  And the man with the ball smiles because he's gotten our attention.

I like to think of myself as more of a cat in this instance. I might look at the ball if it is interesting and I might study it for some time, but I will then look at the moron grinning at me expecting me to do his bidding and lift my leg and clean myself.  8)
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: davidAZ on March 09, 2006, 02:58:49 PM
Sometimes I feel like we're in a nation of dogs.  Whenever the media, or a politician has a bone or a red bouncy ball to wave, everyone in unison looks this way or that.  And the man with the ball smiles because he's gotten our attention.

I like to think of myself as more of a cat in this instance. I might look at the ball if it is interesting and I might study it for some time, but I will then look at the moron grinning at me expecting me to do his bidding and lift my leg and clean myself.  8)

I like where you took this  8)
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Archimedes on March 13, 2006, 04:34:45 PM
I'm kinda late coming in on this one, and haven't had time to read all of the posts. But, I will go back and read them later to catch up.

I just wanted to fess up that, I voted "Against the Wars", simply because 2 wrongs don't make a right.

War (violence, destruction, hate) + Terrorism (violence, destruction, hate) = more violence, destruction, and hate.

I know that the attacks on September 11, 2001 (which is what they should be referred to, not simply 911) where very shocking and pretty messed up. I was at work, in Oak Ridge, TN, less than half a mile from one of the biggest nuclear research facilities (and then some...) in the country, and also where Little Man and Fat Boy where created. There are still so many theories and loose facts around those attacks, that it's really hard to make any absolute statements about "Who", "How", or "Why" it happened the ways it did. Here are 2 websites that offer some interesting and substancial information that points more towards conspiracy, or at least things not smeared through the mainstream media (another major tool for promoting propaganda).

http://www.infowars.com (http://www.infowars.com)

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/)

I could rant on this for days. I DO greatly appreciate all of our troops, the ones who are truly putting their lives on the line for their families and country, and for our freedom. I just feel that they are being mislead, misinformed, and misused by the powers that be, for their own greedy and deceitful intentions, in the name of patriotism.

The only way to really keep these people from hating Americans... is to show them our good side, our love, and compassion for seeing ALL fellow humans have the same opportunities that we have, to truly experience freedom as we know it here in the US. I think that a lot of our troops have shown these people this side generosity and concern, and that's why the majority of them have welcomed and supported our troops, and not completely ran us out of there in the past 5 years.

Anyways, I will write more on this later.

Take care and God bless.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Ramblin' Dad on March 13, 2006, 05:36:42 PM
Thanks for weighing in jason.  :)

I respect your viewpoint and agree with a lot of it, especially how two wrongs do not make a right; however, I disagree with showing our good side standing alone against the face of the radicals that tend to permeate the middle east. Though I have not witnessed it first hand, I have heard from what I consider a reliable source that there are many schools in the middle east, yes schools that teach a radical view of Islam that hates any and all things remotely American or western culture. It puts the hatred of our people on a religious level. The same level as eating pork if you will, except worse in that it is not their goal to hunt out and terrorize pigs.

I definitely agree that a lot of people in Iraq that were against us have had a change of heart after seeing the quality and honor ability of the people that make up the armed forces; however before that the only view of us they had was through their government. A skewed view that put us in a light as evil doers. Were there other means of changing that view? I'm sure there were, but when and how? How many more world trade centers have to be lost because radical islamists are aloud to roam free to train their legions in hate and terror to set on the world.

Please do not think that I do not realize the loss of innocent lives that has happened due to the conflict. What sets it apart from the world trade center are a few things. First our fighting is not designed to target the innocent and terrorize on purpose. It is designed to remove the cancer as surgically as possible. Second we don't sneak in under cover and kill with abandon. Heck we announced so many times we were going into Iraq I find it rather surprising that we didn't find a vacancy sign in the middle of a dusty abandoned office when we finally got in country. We bombed the heck out of the cities in Iraq, but rather than just letting them fly and leveling everything in sight we dropped smart bombs attempting again to minimize civilian casualties. If it were Bin Ladden dropping the bombs he would have used smart bombs as well, but they would have targeted hospitals, schools, places of worship, and any high population facilities he could target.

I hate war. I hate seeing innocent lives lost. Over all though I would hate more that there is a threat out there that threatens my family that is targetable and do nothing about it. Sanctions were tried, and the government (Iraq) starved its people. Rather than oil being traded for food, Saddam was able to sell some of it and hoard the money. What food the government got was distributed to those loyal to Saddam. Part of the money Saddam hoarded went to paying families of those that would strap bombs to themselves and kill innocents.

I believe we are doing the best we can to minimize death while trying to remove the cancer. There is so much thought about how to do this without harm to innocents that we may end up losing the fight or having it cost us more in lives of our troops. There are ways to suppress the insurgents in Iraq, but the costs to the Iraqi people and our values are to high for us.

I was involved in the first one and felt betrayed that we did not finish it then. Then doubly betrayed when our sanctions were thrown back in our faces and nothing was done about it. Then triply betrayed when a terrorist group brought in bombs (planes) and attacked us. Will I feel betrayed again? Will I have to one day see the Golden Gate Bridge blown up, or have a dirty nuclear bomb blown up in a major city, or right nest door so that I can experience the fall out. I say do not get mad at the ones attempting to solve the problem and keep us as safe as they can, but blame the evil bastards out there that breath, teach, preach, support and commit the atrocities in the first place.

All in all you have your sources and know what you believe about the war in Iraq or in the middle east. I have mine. One thing I think we both agree with whole heartedly is the violence must stop somewhere. What we disagree on, perhaps, is how or where. Mostly I think we can both agree to disagree.  :)

Again thanks for the differing view.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Johnn on March 21, 2006, 11:33:11 PM
Only a Fool is "for" War, but you would have to be Stupid not to prepare for it. 

  The one thing about this question is when people give the answer "I'm against the War but for the troops".  Folks you have to support the war to support the troops.  You can not like the idea of the war but not supporting the war is not supporting that which is the instrument which performs the act, the troops.  So next time someone ask you this question a VETS perferred answer is "I don't support the reason for action, yet I do support my country, those fighting for it and the actions which we are already committed."

Just my two cents anways.
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Ramblin' Dad on March 22, 2006, 12:50:00 AM
So next time someone ask you this question a VETS perferred answer is "I don't support the reason for action, yet I do support my country, those fighting for it and the actions which we are already committed."


I am a Vet and I can say that this statement states it quite well.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/SierraDude/Avatars/SubAvaAn.gif)
Title: Re: Are you for peace or war?
Post by: Abbott on June 08, 2016, 10:03:06 AM
I am definitely pro-war. Some conflicts and tensions simply cannot be resolved peacefully. Besides, ISIS will not ask to sit and talk, but will rather keep decapitating innocent people's heads.