Author Topic: Whats another $634 Billion  (Read 5135 times)

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Offline Bill

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2009, 07:52:37 PM »
so lets see here to have a government run health program lets say I will have to pay an additional 5% in taxes (thats probably pretty low but lets go with it).  Lets see I spend maybe $6,000 a year right now for insurance and everything insurance doesn't cover including dental and eye.  Without going into detail what I pay now is a fraction of the amount of extra money the government will need to take from me for us to have a poorly run health care system.  Screw that crap, I'm not a socialist and never will be, I like having the choice of what I want to do with my money and giving it to a bunch of lazy, illegal, drug addicted, or corrupt politicians is not my idea of fair.

No thanks, you like your system, by all means stay in your country cause I don't want what you have in my country.

Slight problem with your logic.  You're already paying 6000 out of pocket and over 7000 of your taxes goes toward health care coverage that doesn't cover you.  So currently you're paying 13 000 dollars towards your very own health care, because the costs of covering the people that aren't covered equals out to 7000 per person in the US.  Here in Canada we pay our own dental and eye but we pay 0 out of pocket and about 4000 per person.  Now I will be the first to say that Canada should spend more per person than they do, no we aren't desperately out of all of the crap that are the common misconceptions but more money would reduce wait times.  Currently you pay 3 times as much as I do for healthcare before you ever use it.  If you use it, chances are you are paying considerably more than that.


ToddS

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2009, 09:04:46 PM »
Were do you get the $7000 dollar figure from and where does that money go?  Looking at the stats there are 45 million uninsured people in the US but we have to remember that this number includes those wealthy enough to insure themselves and those who decide that they dont want insurance.  There are about 40 million people on medicare and another 40 million on medicaid or state assistance.  If I am assuming correctly that means that 7K is only covering insurance for less than half of our population so that means to give every citizen healthcare we are going to have to more than double that 7K.  How is that saving me money?  I bet for my family of 4 we don't spend more that 6K on insurance and doctors visits.  There is no way in hell that government can do things cheaper than the private sector. 

Offline Bigred

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2009, 09:10:24 PM »
Your right, we also pay about 7% of our income into the already existing healthcare program (our employer typically picks up the other half), however to think that would change is crazy they will add the extra percentage to the sum already there, afterall that burden is still there.  So no problem with my logic unless you are assuming that they will take away that 7%, and they won't.

So I am only paying $6000 to my health care like I said, and going to a government health care system would add 5% or more on top of that.  As you pointed out I am already paying an additional 7% of my income to our government funded healthcare system, which I do not use, so why on earth woud I want to spend an additional % for a universal healthcare system that will make things worse than what they already are.

So you pay only $4k per person into your health care?   Total?  That number seems low?  
But, I believe we have some 10 times the number of physicians and nurses that you do and they are paid on average twice as much as yours are.  We have far more technically advanced medical gadgetry than you guys per population, and we don't have to wait as long as you do for medical treatment and surgeries.  We have a much higher crime rate and drug use rate which burdens our system, we have many more illegal alians burdening our system, so yeah I guess I can see why you would pay less.  But none of those things I mentioned will be fixable by the government, except maybe the illegal alien thing but our government sucks when it comes to that so i don't see that changing anytime soon.



Offline Bill

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2009, 10:16:43 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared


Excerpts from there
In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was US$6,714; in Canada, US$3,678.

Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on health care was 23% higher than Canadian government spending, and U.S. government expenditure on health care was just under 83% of total Canadian spending (public and private).

The average life expectancy for Canada was 80.34 years compared with U.S. at 78.6 years.

The U.S. government spends more on health care than on Social Security and national defense combined, according to the Brookings Institute.

In both Canada and the United States , access to health care can be a problem. Studies suggest that 40% of US citizens and 5% of Canadian citizens lack adequate access to health care.


ToddS

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2009, 12:09:55 AM »
Bill you keep saying how much the US already spends on health care.  That money is only spent on people who have no insurance or on Medicare/medicaid. The people with no insurance is less than 45% of the population.  So if we are already paying such a ridiculous amount for health care how is doubling the number of people using it going to save us any money?  While the Canadian health system is cheaper than the US what was the savings to the Canadian people when it was first implemented or did it actually cost people more?  As far as your stats go about life expectancy and infant mortality, they cannot be attributed to the health care system alone.  There are a lot more factors involved.

The other question that comes to my mind is why on earth would I want to give the government more control over my personal life?  Now the government gets a say in what I can eat, drink, and smoke and this is not a conspiracy theory.  Things like this are happening in Great Britain, Germany and Japan. 





























Offline Bill

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2009, 08:20:37 AM »
So if we are already paying such a ridiculous amount for health care how is doubling the number of people using it going to save us any money?


Because your system is a For Profit system. Fully one quarter of your tax dollars goes directly to that.  Seeing as the New England Journal of Medicine put it best I'll quote them. "Profits, billing, marketing, and the gratuitous costs of private bureaucracies siphon off $400 billion to $500 billion of the $2.1 trillion spent" (numbers reflective of 2006)

So half a trillion dollars goes to pay rich people to manage your medical care.
And yes you're right.  Your 7000 per person funds just a little under half of the health care system.

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The other question that comes to my mind is why on earth would I want to give the government more control over my personal life?

Good question, I wouldn't want that either, as a matter of fact, I don't have that.  To quote wikipedia..... 
"While some label Canada's system as "socialized medicine," the term is inaccurate. Unlike systems with public delivery, such as the UK, the Canadian system provides public coverage for private delivery. As Princeton University health economist Uwe E. Reinhardt notes, single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems, because doctors are in the private sector.[21] Similarly, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities, rather than being part of government. "

Quote
The people with no insurance is less than 45% of the population.
Actually it's more like 20%.

"Nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007" quote from The National Coalition on Health Care, Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage. http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

"In recent decades, managed care has become prevalent in the United States, with some 90% of privately insured Americans belonging to plans with some form of managed care.[57] In managed care, insurance companies control patients' health care to reduce costs, for instance by demanding a second opinion prior to some expensive treatments or by denying coverage for treatments not considered worth their cost."  And the government seems like a worse choice than a guy making millions of your dollars to decide whether a treatment is "worth their cost"?






ToddS

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2009, 12:13:54 PM »
When I stated that 45% of the population had no insurance I was including the people on medicare and medicaid because that we what the taxpayers are having to pay for.  I would love to see the stats of what it was costing people before government took control of healthcare vs what they are paying now.  I really don't see government doing things cheaper than the private sector.  You say that 25% of our medical costs are profit.  So by giving the government control we are going to lower prices by 25%?  Hogwash, how much is all the new government buracracy going to cost us?

As far as Canadian health care goes it sounds like you are very happy with it and that is great but that does not mean that our politicians are going to implement it the same way.  The core of the liberal platform is that the individual cannot possibly know what is best for themselves.  The government knows best and it is here to take care of you.  We cannot continue to just hand over control of our personal freedoms.  Freedom comes with a cost.  That cost is having to be responsible for your actions and knowing the risks of those actions.  I would much rather make my own decisions than have mommy government do it for me. 

Offline Bill

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2009, 01:03:27 PM »
Todd, I'm uncertain how it is that you can misunderstand facts.  Your system is a for-profit system.  Your insurance is for-profit and so might very well tell you no when you have a medical necessity because it isn't "cost effective".  If the system were non-profit IE paying ONLY for the costs of administering your costs would be cut by one quarter.  If the system wasn't for- profit and you didn't have to buy third party insurance you also wouldn't be paying out of pocket for insurance, thereby cutting your personal costs easily in half by the numbers that were shown by BigRed.  1/4 off your taxation dollars, and 6000 less out of pocket.  Remember that currently your hospital boards are most interested in keeping their profit margin in the 10 - 20% range.

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We cannot continue to just hand over control of our personal freedoms.  Freedom comes with a cost.  That cost is having to be responsible for your actions and knowing the risks of those actions.

Once again, the government doesn't control who I see, the government doesn't control where I go to see a doctor.  They merely make sure that the doctor I see and the place I go are paid for their services.

Fear is not freedom, and all I see in these repeated posts is fear of change.  To say that a system that is not seeing to the needs of nearly 40% of people and that 100% of the people in the country pay for 25% of the peoples healthcare and their own is about the oddest thing I've seen.  The government is already giving the poor people healthcare so the whole "I'm not paying for lazy people to see a doctor with a social system, f* that"  You already are, and have been for a long time.  Not to mention that you've been paying a doctor and a hospital that you never went to PROFIT.  Isn't it time to find something better?


ToddS

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2009, 03:23:30 PM »
You are darn right I am afraid of the government taking things over.  Look at what the have done to our schools, social security and medicare how it already is.  They dont do anything right.  The budgets do nothing but grow and grow and they cant manage the things they already control.  Why on earth could I expect them to run my health care properly.

Offline Bill

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2009, 01:49:08 AM »
You are darn right I am afraid of the government taking things over.  Look at what the have done to our schools, social security and medicare how it already is.  They dont do anything right.  The budgets do nothing but grow and grow and they cant manage the things they already control.  Why on earth could I expect them to run my health care properly.

So you're hoping that some day the people that have been made millionaires by the system of fleecing every person in the country for the sake of profits will just have a change of heart and go "What about the people?!  What we're doing really doesn't help a fair amount of people, lets change things and stop worrying about our ridiculously large salaries!"

I wouldn't hold my breath for that day.

And once again, my government doesn't run my health care.  They run the socialized insurance that pays for my health care.  Is that so hard to get, or does your argument lose its teeth if that basis of "government control" is removed in any way?


Offline z_randy

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2009, 09:31:42 AM »
When the people in government stop thinking about themselves maybe I'll worry less



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ToddS

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2009, 10:03:27 AM »
Bill I have said it before that it is great that you are happy with the Canadian system.  No one is trying to get you to change.  I can however find lots of stories about how your system is not the greatest either.  I find it really interesting that your government is so scared of private health care that they wont even let doctors run private practices.  If people can afford it who is the government to say that you cant use your own money to go to the doctor.  How is this a bad thing?  There is no guarantee that the US will implement the same system as yours.  You also speak of how profits are bad thing and how evil the rich are.  If I had a choice between going to the doctor and getting whatever treatment I want when I want it and it being expensive or only being able to get the treatment that the government will give when they give it to me.  Then I want the freedom to do what is best for me. 

The real end to this debate is that we are republic and we follow the rule of law.  Any form of social program violates this but the politicians of this country have been wiping their asses with the constitution for so long that no one cares.

Offline Bill

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2009, 10:34:39 AM »
No the real end to the debate winds up being stories like this....  http://www.katu.com/news/40122542.html



PORTLAND, Ore. - A Portland family is fighting for the life of their baby boy, who needs a heart transplant or will die.

But a $1.5 million price tag is standing in the way of his survival.

Rejected by the hospitals that could save his life, 10-week-old Laith Dougherty can't even get on a waiting list for a new heart.

“It just astounds me that our health care system would let children die," said the baby’s mother, Ghadah Makoshi.

Laith was born early and initially needed help breathing and for other complications. But his mother said he went home after eight days and seemed healthy until they noticed weeks later that he did not seem to be eating as much as he should. Further tests eventually revealed the baby had a congenital heart defect, Makoshi said.

Doctors told the family the baby's heart is too weak for surgery and the only option for survival is a heart transplant.

Now inside OHSU’s Pediatric Intensive Care Unit, doctors can only monitor Laith's condition. OHSU doesn't offer transplants for babies, and the out-of-state hospitals that do have told his family "No."

“For Seattle's or for any other hospital who thinks it's just, you know, a matter of numbers, and, you know, ‘Fine, we're just not going to accept that case,’ you're essentially writing a death sentence," Makoshi said.

The mother said Seattle's Children's Hospital told her it needs $1.5 million to give Laith a transplant. But the child needs a heart now.

“Probably what was the hardest thing to hear from the doctor was that, 'If you don't get insurance, then at some point, you're going to need to decide how you want him to die,' " Makoshi said.

She and her husband do have health insurance, but it doesn't cover transplants.

 “I just can't understand how anybody could turn him down for a heart,” she said. “I just don't.”

The mother said she is asking for donations and also for people to write their state representatives and senators.

LEARN MORE ABOUT HOW YOU CAN HELP LAITH

Seattle Children's Hospital on Tuesday released this statement about Laith's case:

"It pains us to be in a position where we cannot provide health care services to all children who need them. We receive requests for financial support from families throughout the world and unfortunately do not have funds to care for every child in need.

We are committed to providing health care to children in the WAMI region (Washington, Alaska, Montana and Idaho) regardless of a family’s ability to pay. Unfortunately we do not have the funding to make the same commitment to children outside our four-state area. Patients who live outside our region are encouraged to work with their insurance company and members of their communities to raise the money needed to be seen at Children’s.

Children’s provided more than $86 million in un- and under-compensated care in FY 07/08 and that number is expected to grow to more than $100 million in FY 2009."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Our government isn't afraid of Private practices.  Our government knows that to allow it is to never be the government in power ever again and to have that be the fastest thing to be repealed ever.  Plus they know that here in Canada two things are true, never having to worry about finances when you're sick helps you to live longer and that a baby's heart transplant may cost us a million dollars but I would rather pay that then tell my neighbour to F*** off because they can't afford it.

So the biggest difference is that if this family was poor enough you'd pay for it whether you liked it or not.  And because they aren't, their baby will die even if a heart becomes available because they don't have 1.5 million dollars.  Hell of a system you have there.


Offline Bill

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2009, 10:48:17 AM »
Let me add one more thing and you can answer it or not, you can find many articles about how horrible the Canadian system is, but how many can you find that are written by Canadians?  I'm sure that there are some, but the main article about your system was written by the New England Journal of Medicine.  Someone that is getting paid by your current system of health care is saying "Damn this system is crap."


ToddS

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Re: Whats another $634 Billion
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2009, 03:39:32 PM »
Bill that is a horrible story and my prayers go out to that family but are you trying to say that the no one in Canada dies from not being able to get proper medical care?  Bad things happen every day no matter how much you try or how much money you spend.  Life is not fair and you can't change that.  I have never said that our system is perfect and doesn't need changes.  My argument is that government is not the answer to those needed changes. 

As far as private medical practices go, currently the Canadian law says that if the Canadian Health System covers X procedure than a private practice cannot offer that procedure.  So if the wait for a hip replacement is 2 years then you cannot go to a private practice and use your own money to pay for one and receive one in a timely manner.  Further research reveals that the government is starting to turn a blind eye to this but it is still illegal.  Also it is illegal to sell private insurance in Canada.  If the system in Canada is so great why are they afraid of competition.  No one says that you have to get rid of the government insurance just allow those who can afford it to be able to purchase private insurance to do so.  The heart of this issue is that it is unfair.  The evil rich should not be allowed to have better health care or more options.  Again we have to get over this notion that life is fair.  Not everyone can be rich.  Everyone has the opportunity to be rich but it is up to you to make the right decisions and sacrifices or you can just be lucky and be born into your money.  Why should that be held against someone?  They earned the money they should be able to spend it as they see fit. 

 



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